Techniques in Home Winemaking is a resource for home winemakers looking for information or help on making great wines, including troubleshooting winemaking problems, and to share that knowledge with fellow winemakers. This resource is based and builds on my book by the same title and my newly released book titled Modern Home Winemaking, which has been updated to reflect the newest techniques and products for making outstanding wines.
Much of my experience is derived from extensive literature search as well as from my experience both as a home and a commercial winemaker.
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Hi Daniel
Do you know of a lab that I can send my juice to and get a quick turn around? Need malolactic levels, YAN , and confirmation on TA
Thank you so much
I really appreciate all of your vast knowledge and you willingness to share it with us
Kathi Jo
Yes. Your best bet is ETS Labs (etslabs.com).
Hello Daniel, Can, or should I add oak during red fermentation. I’m thinking Oak cubes in a mesh bag so I can transfer them to the carboy after pressing.
Hi Pete,
Absolutely. You can do it anytime depending on what you want to achieve. The chemistry of oak interactions with wine, for example, during fermentation vs during aging is quite different.
Experiment and see what you like.
Hello Daniel. During clearing and long term carboy aging, do you continue to use an airlock, or at some point change over to a solid stopper. Pete
Hi Pete,
Once I know the wine is degassed, i switch over to a solid bung.
Hello Daniel. I was reading the section on MLF in your book and have a quick question. I usually ferment my reds to dryness on the skins and then press. Can I innocuoate with MLF culture immediately after pressing even though I would rack off the gross lees one week after pressing? Or does the MLF culture do better after the gross lees are gone?
Also, will you be at the winery in the next week or two? I will be picking up grapes and an it would be great to meet you in person.
Hi Vince,
There are many schools of thought on MLF with respect to the AF. Personally, i press and inoculate right away for MLF. Be sure to add nutrients.
I sold the winery, so, no, i will not be there.
Cheers,
Daniel
Daniel,
I have a 6 gallon carboy with Muscat from Chili that I started this spring. On June 11 I used SuperKleer, and then racked it for the first and only time on July 3. The wine is brilliantly clear, zero sediment on the bottom of the carboy. My usual practice would be to rack a couple more times over the better part of the year, and then bottle, but in this care I’m wondering if I should continue my regular regime, or go ahead and do an early bottle?Not sure if there is a point to further rackings and time in the carboy.
Rod,
Moscato is very susceptible to oxidation. I wouldn’t do more than the basic needed rackings. I do suggest a final filtration before bottling. if not done, you should test for tartrate and protein stability and treat the wine accordingly as needed before bottling. Moscato does not profit much from aging, so bottle away.
Good luck
Hi Daniel,
I am making 30 gallons of Pinot Noir with “fresh” fruit from Sonoma and Ashmanhausen yeast. It smelled and tasted great while fermenting and immediately after pressing and within a few hours has a H2S odor. I checked the free SO2 w a Hanna analyzer now and it is >400ppm. I didn’t test at crush, but added < 50ppm at crush.
Does H2S alter the free SO2 test result?
I started using a diffusion stone with CO2 bubbling thru the wine tonight and can do a splash racking on 10/1. Help?
Hi Mark.
I don’t know all the circumstances of your fermentation. It may have been a nutrient deficiency that caused H2S, assuming your pre-press fermentation was not too long. Gross lees can be a source of H2S. There may be other reasons.
SO2 cannot possibly be that high given the amounts you added. Something went wrong with your titration, likely old reagents. H2S does not affect the test.
Try aeration by racking if the smell is not too too much. If it is, careful as aeration can worsen it.
You’ll likely need to do a copper fining by adding CuSO4 or a product called Reduless.
Good luck.
Dan,
Got a batch of chokecherry wine going and after a month of so, checked gravity and misread my hydrometer, problem is, added stabilizers and then realized my mistake when i re-checked. Is there any way I can restart, or add new yeast to finish?,-or did I ruin this batch?
It will likely be difficult to restart but that depends on the SG, what stabilizers you added, and how much of each. If you can provide that data, i can give you a better idea.
Hi Daniel
Busy, busy in the wine room
Question: I have two, 300 liter variable height tanks, where I am macerating my Marquette. It has been 10 days. I have been puching down the caps twice daily. In one tank the cap has stopped rising all together. It tastes dry. The other tank has the cap rising ever so slightly at this point. I am concerned that continuing to expose the wine to air by opening and punching will oxidise it a bit. I want to leave it on the skins for another week…if I can. Would it be safe to seal the lid with minimal head space and air lock it until I am ready to press. What could be the downside of that action?
Hi Kathi.
I do an extended post-ferment maceration all the time with my Cabs. I seal my vat with a heavy tarp and a rubber strap around the top, and then inject some CO2. If your wine is still fermenting, it is still generating some CO2 that will sit on top of the wine and protect it from air. work quickly when you punch down to minimize CO2 loss. Repeat until dryness. no downside assuming you are tasting the wine to ensure you are extracting only as much as you like.
Cheers,
Daniel
Hi Daniel,
Last year we bottled our 2013 Cabernet Sauvignon and recently we have noticed that the wine in the bottles are low in tannin and the color is light. What would be the cause and any suggestions on a fix for this.
Hi Mary,
My guess is that you extracted very little tannins and anthocyanins (color pigment) during fermentation if you worked from grapes. It is also possible that you overfined or used an inappropriate fining agent. There’s not much you can do at this point.
Daniel
Hello Daniel – When you post ferment macerate your Cab, approx how many days? Besides sealing the top, do you lower the temperature with frozen water bottles?
Hi Pete,
It all depends on your objectives and the variety you’re working with as well as your ability to control temperature and protect the wine from the elements. It can be a few days to a couple of weeks. You need to chill down the wine, continue with punchdowns and blanket the wine with CO2. i used frozen 1-gal jugs for cooling.
Good luck
Daniel
Hello Daniel. I picked up my California cabs on the weekend and the numbers look like this:
Amador county pH 3.8, TA .45%, brix 26.
Sonoma pH 3.8, TA .60%, brix 23.
After 4 days of cold soak the Sonoma must already has a nice deep colour while the Amador is what I would call a medium colour. Given these colour profiles, would a cool fermentation be better for Sonoma and a warm fermentation for Amador? Fermentation has just started and the must temperature is around 17 degrees. Also, I’m planning to press these premium grapes in about one week and then add the skins to a batch of Niagara Merlot which should be ready for crush next week.
Thanks in advance.
Hi Vince.
I recommend you go with a “hot” fermentation for optimum extraction. cool temps are best for pre- or post-ferment maceration, not fermentation, with reds.
Hi Daniel, I have a question about chaptalization that I hope you could please answer. If I add sugar just after the start of fermentation, doesn’t the sugar need to be sterilized first? Sugar contains contaminants, like bacteria, so isn’t there a risk of adding the sugar without sterilizing it first? I know you can warm up must to add sugar to it to dissolve the sugar, but that is not sterilizing the sugar, and you do not want to boil the must either.
So, I suppose another part of my question is, can I heat pasteurize the sugar in the must by holding the temperature of the must at an effective temperature for pasteurization? Is there a need to do this? How much risk is there in not sterilizing the sugar before adding it into the must after fermentation has begun.
Thanks alot for any help you can provide.
Hi Dom.
Always use a new bag of sugar when chaptilizing. You should have no problems. No need to sterlize.
Ok thanks Daniel. So for post fermentation masceration after the C02 blanket is gone, what’s the best way to protect the wine? In another post you mentioned that you inject C02. How is this done? Would dry ice have he same effect?
You can use dry ice. I do it in a tank using a CO2 gas, so it’s easy to inject and avoid too much loss. When I use a vat, I place a heavy tarp on top and tie it down with a strong bungee cord. then i use a tube from a CO2 cylinder to inject gas.
Hi Daniel
I am trying to get a more accurate picture of my wine making, so I have been sending Juice and wines to ETS for analysis..rather than rely on my testing
So, the 2015 Marquette juice had a TA of 10.5g/L and a L- malic acid of 4.24 Brix was 24.9
Now the wine is a TA of 10.4, L-malic acid of 2.44 g/L and an ethanol of 15.4 If the malic acid dropped that much because of Lalvin C yeast, then why is that not reflected in the TA? Isn’t the malic part of the TA? Also, why is my alcohol so high when my brix was only 24.9.
I am going to use some double salt. When is best time? Does it leave a bitter taste ?
Hi Kathi.
At 24.9 Brix, your PA would have been around 13.7% using a standard hydrometer. So the actual of 14.3% is only about 0.6% off, which is a very small difference given the complexity of predicting how much ethanol will be produced by yeast. In any case, an estimate would be just that, an estimate.
Your malic dropped 1.8 g/L while TA only dropped 0.1 g/L. Some acid (mainly succinic) is produced during fermentation. There may also have been some acetic acid produced. So it’s not totally surprising to see TA not change.
If you do a MLF, you can expect your TA to drop to about just under 8 g/L. What is your target? Double-salt precipitation will also reduce tartaric acid, which will bring TA down to the 6 g/L range maybe. Is that what you want?
I would do an MLF NOW and that’s it.
Oopps. Correction to latest post. The ethanol on Marquette wine 2015 is 14.3, not 15.4. Still too high for a 24.9 brix
Thank you Daniel
I am hoping to get the TA down to under 7. On this one. I plan on MLF, but need a little more tweeting .
Given the high TA s of our grapes here in Minnesota, I figure I may as well learn to work with it. Is it possible to make a good wine using double salt? I used it a few years ago on a small batch. It was not difficult. Does it cause off flavors?
Thanks Daniel. You are the best
Kathi Jo
If you want to experiment with double-salt precipitation to reduce TA, sure, go for it. It will work well IF you do all the calculations and procedure correctly. Triple-check your calculations and then work quickly during the procedure as you take the wine to a very high pH. It should not cause off-flavors if you don’t overdo it. With your numbers, there should not be a problem.
I’m interested to see the recent posts about using a double salt PPT technique as I have a 2014 Chard that is too too tart. I exhaustively have looked for home wine making sized (5 kg was what I found) packages of materials with no success. Does anyone have a supplier? Tnx.
Brian,
First confirm the relative concentrations of tartaric and malic acid. You may need to send a sample to a lab. Otherwise it is useless to try double-salt precipitation if your malic is low.
Known product names include Acidex and Sihadex. Try a search on those.
Hello Daniel. When performing pre or post cold maceration, what is the optimal must temp range to avoid spoilage? One other question. When punching down the cap should I also stir up the gross lees from the bottom of the fermenter?
Hi Pete,
I take it down to the mid-40s (around 8C). Yes, stir up the lees to keep them “active” to avoid H2S.
Hi Daniel. I just crushed 5 bushels of Ontario Merlot and I got some really Californiaesque numbers:
pH 3.7
TA .55%
Brix 24
The grower said that the bad winter we had killed off a lot of the buds which resulted in much lower but better yields. With the low acid would there be any advantage to adding some tartaric at this stage or should I wait until after MLF?
Also this is the batch to which I plan to add the frozen Sonoma Cabernet skins which I mentioned in a previous post. Do you think it would be better to add that now during cold soak or during fermentation? I’m a little concerned that introducing frozen skins may drop the temperature and result in a stuck fermentation.
Cheers.
Personally, I would not touch the acidity; it’s not out of whack. You’ll probably be oaking the wine, and so the tannin will add a bit of a bite. If you add too much acid, it might only be well balanced.
Add the skins now, before fermentation.
Good luck.
Hello Daniel.
I’m doing a cold maceration on some California Cab Sauv.
Should I stir any while macerating?
Also – I need to add some acidified water to drop the brix to an acceptable range (came in at 28 brix). Should I use distilled or spring water?
What do you suggest as a target range – 24 – 25 brix?
Pete
Hi Pete,
Yes, you should stir periodically during cold soak to make the must uniform and, more importantly, to avoid microbial spoilage on the surface.
If your tap water is good to drink, you can use that. Otherwise spring water is fine.
Brix target is what you desire as final alcohol and the balance you are looking for with acidity and tannins.
Daniel
Hello Daniel. California Cab came in at 28 brix, 3.8 ph, and 0.37 TA. I’ve added acidified water to get the brix down to approx 25.5. Do you recommend a tartaric acid addition pre fermentation to raise the TA to at least 0.5-0.6 range?
Hi Pete,
Yes, I would acidify with tartaric acid. That will bring you pH down a bit too.
Daniel, While starting the primary fermentation for a white wine, I accidentally put in Yeast Starter instead of the Yeast Nutrient I had intended. Will this ruin my batch? Is there anything I can do? Thanks!
It won’t ruin your batch assuming everything (particularly temperature) was ok. Just make sure you do add the nutrients NOW.
Hi Daniel.
I was wondering if you have any experience with frozen musts. I got some frozen Cabernet Sauvignon must from Spain this year and I noticed that the juice was already a dark colour even before fermentation which is probably a result of freezing and thawing and breaking down the skin wall. After two days of fermentation with RC212, the wine is already a beautiful deep colour. I usually ferment my reds on the skins to dryness and I was wondering if there is any advantage to letting this must ferment on the skins further. Is there any risk of too much skin fermentation?
Hi Vince,
Yes, I do … Vino Superiore frozen musts.
It’s a good thing that it’s dark. They have basically done the cold maceration for you – bonus, no?
Ferment on the skins for as long as you want. With my Cabs (grapes, not frozen must), I used to do a post-ferment maceration to extract more phenolics. With the frozen musts, I press at the end of the AF.
You have to assess and decide when to press. Taste and taste often and press when you think you have extracted the right amount of tannins. Careful not to overextract.
Exciting times, no?
Yes! When a home wine maker can make wine with fruit from Europe, California and local Ontario vineyards, it is an exiting time.
On the tannin question, is it possible to determine tannin level by taste when the sugar level is still quite high and the taste of the juice is still very sweet?
It is very hard and requires a lot of experience. It should be much easier when the wine is dry, the point at which you really need to start managing tannins.
I hope through this set of questions to get a better understanding of the typical post-fermentation racking/fining schedule for a white wine. Last time didn’t go as smoothly as I wanted, so I’m trying to improve this vintage. After the wine is fermented dry at a low temperature (60 degrees F or so), I understand that I should rack and add sulfite. The wine is fairly gassy at that point, so I assume (and I’ve found) adding bentonite at that time can be problematic. Degassing, as if it were a kit wine, can be difficult because the wine is very cold and the CO2 wants to stay dissolved. Should I keep the wine cool, let it sit for some amount of time to let the CO2 dissipate (how long does that take naturally?), rack, and then do a bentonite fining? Or, would warming it up and degassing it sooner make more sense (is any flavor lost by warming after fermentation?)? If I want to cold stabilize, is that best after the bentonite fining and another racking? Thanks, as always, for taking our questions, and I apologize for the length of this set of questions.
Hi Craig,
I never degas my wines, NEVER, simply because I believe in letting them age so that they can blossom into their full potential. Given the longer amount of time and other processing activities (racking, filtering, etc) involved, which help degas wine naturally, there is no need to degas. And I always store my wines at 13C/55F, ALWAYS.
But many like to start drinking their wines young, much younger than I do, and so degassing is a necessary evil. I say necessary evil because it still adds oxygen, particularly at colder temperatures and if not done properly.
You may also be interested in reading my research paper on a degassing experiment I had conducted some years ago.
Should you keep the wine cool? Should you wait? Only you can answer those questions.
What I do is stabilize the wine immediately at the end of the AF followed by a bentonite treatment to clarify the wine and stabilize against proteins, and in preparation for cold stabilization — the order is important. I then cold stabilize the wine and re-check for both protein and tartrate stability to ensure that I have not introduced any new instabilities. A racking is performed following each operation.
Then I filter and bottle, tyically a minimum of 12 months after the vintage, possibly a couple of years with full-bodied whites like an oak-aged Chardonnay. No degassing.
If you want to degas, remember that gases (O2 and CO2 of concern here) are more soluble at lower temperature. That means degassing at high temperature results in less oxygen uptake and better CO2 release. And yes, it’s a fine balancing act — too hot a temperature and you start releasing those wonderful aromas you worked so hard at developing.
Hope this helps.
Daniel
Thanks, Daniel. It does. One clarifying point: you write, “What I do is stabilize the wine immediately at the end of the AF followed by a bentonite treatment.” What do you mean by stabilize the wine immediately after fermentation? Do you add Bentonite right after fermentation or wait a period?
It means adding sulfite. This is the first thing you should at the end of the AF and following a racking. If you need to figure out how much sulfite to add, use the Sulfite Calculator.
I give the wine time before I do a bentonite treament.
Any typical amount of time before bentonite fining? Thanks for your guidance, I have a clearer picture now!
Not really. It’s according to your own schedule. I try and let the wine clarify as much as possible on its own and then do a bentonite treatment late in the process, soon before bottle, for a final clarification but, more important, for final protein stability.
Daniel, I have 5 gallons of Chardonnay made from grapes grown in hot houses in Alaska and its turned brown. I cold soaked the crushed grapes at 55F for 3 days then pressed and added 50ppm SO-2, then .5 grams of lallzyme cuvee blanc and the next day added 5 grams of Opti-white booster blanc and hydrated my yeast with go-ferm and after 2 days added Fermaid-K and more later on. Fermentation was done at 55 F. After 10 days My hydrometer says its a neg. 1, however its still gassing off some gasses? The Ph is 3.52 and TA 9.2 and no free S0-2. Should I add K-meta sulfite now or wait? Is there anything I can do to alter the browning? Thanks Mike
Hi Mike,
The browning is due to the cold soak, and especially with no SO2. You should not cold soak whites, except for maybe a very maximum of 24 hours with certain varieties, and this under conditions that you can control exceptionally well to avoid oxidative effects.
Yes, I would expect that the wine still has lots of dissolved CO2 at this stage. You also need to figure out if it is spontaneously going through MLF. If you want an MLF, it should be controlled, i.e. by adding an appropriate culture. Decide if/when you want an MLF and then sulfite accordingly to stabilize. It’s critical that you stabilize (by adding sulfite) as soon as possible, esp. given your situation.
TA seems high for a Chardonnay, but I suspect that it is that high because of excessive acetic acid.
You can remove some of the browning with a PVPP or casein treatment but I’m afraid your wine has an off-character because of oxidative effects during the cold soak. If it’s really brown and you absolutely want to salvage the wine, you may need to do a carbon treatment.
Sorry, but that’s the best you can hope.
Daniel
Hello Daniel – The first time I did a red fermentation it fermented dry in about 4 days. My current batch, California Cabernet Sauv. Starting brix – 25.5. Pitched the yeast, bordeau red, 10/20 – could detect fermentation 10/21 – temp has averaged approx 75 degrees. This has been a very slow fermentation – still at approx 2-3 brix 9 days later. Should I let it continue in the open fermenter until dry, probably another 2-3 days, or should I go ahead and press and let it finish in a closed carboy under airlock.
Thanks – Pete
Hi Pete,
The answer is a very personal one, largely based on one’s preference of wine style.
I like to extract as much as I can as I like to age my wines, so I would wait until dryness before pressing. This is if you can manage/control the wine against the elements and oxidation.
For future reference, you want that fermentation to happen relatively quickly and at relatively high temperature. 75F is a bit low.
Daniel
Daniel, I have 10 gallons of pinot noir made from grapes that has finished MLF; ph-3.8, TA- 6.4,and dis. 0xygen at 31% . would you suggest adding Tar. acid to lower the ph so as not to have to add so much SO2? The wine is in glass carboys-solid stopper and has not had any oak. Its only been 21 days since completion of MLF. and only racked once after completion of MLF and stored at 50 to 55F. I use CO2 from a cylinder to top off all carboys. Would you suggest adding oak chips and when. Thanks, Mike
ta-6.4, FSO
Daniel, found your book in Alaska and have read 1/3 already. Excellent college text! My pinot noir seems flat tasting at a ph of 3.75,TA6.4. It just finished ML fermentation 3 weeks ago, however. Would oak chips help the flavor?
Thanks Mike
Hi Mike,
Great! Enjoy the read.
Flat!? What do you mean by flat? Flat usually means thin, lacking acidity. But you have 6.4 g/L
Oak chips will definitely add a bite, which is probably what you are looking for.
Also, give the wine some time. It’ll come around.
Daniel
Hello Daniel – My Cab Sauv fermentation was in a partially heated garage. Avg temp low to mid 60’s. Could never get the ferment over mid 70’s. I had a carboy sized heat belt on my 32 gal rubbermaid fermenter and had the fermenter on two layers of corrugate to insulate it from the cold concrete floor. What else can I do in the future to get the temp up, hot water bottles? Second question – I froze the pressed cake to come back later to make a seconds batch – will the freezing temps kill the yeast so I will need to re pitch? Thanks – Pete
Hi Pete,
Try a space heater placed close to the fermenter. You really want to kick-start that fermentation. Once it does, it’ll generate a lot of heat of its own and you can shut the heater.
You will need to re-pitch to have any chance of success. Some yeast may become active on their own, like a inexperienced human recovering from a trip to the North Pole, some will remain inhibited. So, yeah, best to re-pitch.
Daniel
hi daniel,
i have a real problem with my 2014 wine batches. i added too much pot.sulf. powder to my wine. it smells and tastes sulfate. i bottled in sept 2014 and now i open wine and smells and tastes sulfite.
can i uncork the wines and airate in sanitized containers and recork to get rid of free sulfites?? even though the wine has been on shelf for one year???
jerry
Hi Jerry,
Grrr on adding too much sulfite. There are tools to help you avoid such mistakes. For future use …. Sulfite Calculator
Yes, you can uncork all the bottles and stir the whole batch to dissipate as much free SO2 as possible. It may not get you down to something you will like, depending on how much you added. It’s tough. The only other solution is adding hydrogen peroxide but I really hate to suggest that … but it’s an option.
Daniel
thanks so much for your speedy and helpful reply.
i did read your article on solving the sulfite problem in the wine making mag. should have read it before i started making my wine…
thanks, again, ciao
jerry
This is not a plug for my book, but you should really get a copy if you don’t have one yet. If you do, seems like you need to do some reading. LOL
We live and learn.
Good luck!
Hello Daniel. I made a Cabernet from frozen Spanish must which seems to be taking a long time to ferment out. After two weeks it is sitting at around 1.005 sp. The original brix was 25.5 which according to my hydrometer should yield 14.5% alcohol. This may be at the limit of the RC 212 yeast’s tolerance for alcohol. I was thinking whether to add some EC 118 which has a higher alcohol tolerance. What would this yeast do if I add it now? Would it start metabolizing the remaining sugar or would its first priority be to overcome the other yeast? Or should I just be more patient and wait? The temperature in the room is around 19 degrees.
Thanks.
Hi Vince,
Personally, I would increase the temp and let it ferment it out on its own to dryness. It should. RC-212 should do it on its own. I use it all the time. The temp is indeed a little low.
I don’t know how you inoculated but you should have added yeast nutrients (e.g. GO-FERM) to the yeast, and then added more nutrients (e.g. DAP, FERMAID K) at one-third sugar depletion. This and higher temp would take you to dryness like a Sunday drive in the country.
EC-1118 might complete the fermentation, yes, by overtaking RC-212, which would no longer stand a chance to metabolize any remaining sugar.
So BL is increase the temperature and wait it out.
Don’t add nutrients now if you haven’t; not a good idea in case it crossed you mind. You might sulfur issues.
Good luck.
Daniel
Hi Daniel
I am planning to bottle our 2015 red wine on the 19th of December.
It has been in barrels all year and I have batonaged about once a month.
I propose to rack from barrels about 2 weeks before bottling, at the same time blending the wine from barrels into tanks.
What can I do to clarify / fine the wine before racking into the tanks ready for bottling.Do you believe in the processed ALBUMIN.IF so, is 2 weeks before racking into tanks sufficient.
Regards
John
Hi John,
The fruit was harvested in March-April, yes? If so, bottling in December would mean 9 months from grapes to bottle for a red — way to fast in my opinion. I think you are missing out a lot by rushing through the winemaking steps and not aging the wine in bulk. The wine would have so much more to offer, more aromas, more flavours, more finesse, etc etc if you aged it at least 12 months some will say, but I say 18 months. Personally, I age my reds 24-36 months depending on the variety.
Racking 2 weeks before bottling is just to speedy. The wine needs more time to settle from fining. And if you are not filtering, you will indeed end up with sediments in the bottle and, very likely, staining of the glass.
If you don’t want to filter, as I often don’t with my reds, then you should let nature take it course and let the wine clarify itself for up to one year and racking every 3-6 months. Then you can do an egg-white fining (or whatever you chose as a fining agent) before bottling, racking after 2-3 weeks, and let the wine settle before bottling.
Gelatin too works well as a fining agent.
Good luck.
Daniel
Hi Daniel
I have 2 , 55 gallon WineEasy tanks filled with Marquette wine from this years harvest. I added malolactic bacteria to both.. VP 41. One tank seems to be doing fine with the glass air lock pushing However, the second tank does not seem to be responding to the MLB. They are both consistently at temp of 70 to 74 degrees (F). They both have free SO2 of about 20. They were inoculated at the same time with MLB nutrients. Could it be that one of the VP 41 packets was bad? If so, can I add another packet without risking off flavors?
Hi Kathi,
As you can see, it’s like tossing twins into a pool; each will respond and start swimming differently. Same with bacteria.
The key question is: How long ago did you inoculate? The second tank may just need some more time. Sounds like you did everything to the letter. So let’s figure this out before you re-inoculate.
Daniel
It has been over 2 weeks
Warm it up only slightly and a gently, very gentle stir. Let’s take a look then in 24 hours.
Ok ,Thanks Daniel. I will let you know
Hi Daniel.
Thanks for the advice I will wait until March before bottling.
Do I understand you correctly; I will rack in December.
4 weeks before bottling will do Albumin fining and rack into tanks after 2 weeks, allowing 2 weeks to settle before bottling.
John
Yes, you understood correctly, well almost. I would wait a little longer before bottling, as I had said, but you will also get sediments if you bottle that early without filtering.
Hello Daniel – Back to the California Cab Sauv. Ferment 10/21, pressed 11/1 to plastic closed fermenters, racked 11/9 to carboys. -1 Brix / 0.996 SG.
no off smell or taste. Temp 68 degrees.
11/11 – Still very active bubbling.Three weeks – this is a long time for a red ferment – Is this possibly the end of active fermentation along with a spontaneous ML?
Let it ride as is? Thanks
Pete
Still very active? At -1 Brix? So it must be a spontaneous MLF. No off-flavors or tastes, right? Ok, that’s good, not ideal, but good. Not ideal ’cause you have no control over the MLF. As long as aromas/taste are ok, ride it out. The only other option would be to inhibit the bacteria with SO2 and then reinoculate with cultured bacteria. That will pose some challenges, so it’s best not to mess with Mother Nature here.
Hi Daniel
So, Still zero action in the air lock of that Marquette that I am trying to run through malo fermentation. It has been almost 48 hours since I stirred and raised temp to 78ish. Should I go ahead and reinnoculate with some more Lalvin VP41?
You have two options:
1. Reinoculate
2. Cross-inoculate
I’d go with option 2 personally, first. It involves “switching” a part volume between batches making sure to pick up lots of lees and to work carefully so as not to take up too much oxygen as the bacteria are a bit sensitive.
Hello Daniel – So probably spontaneous MLF.
I had some sediment drop out since I racked on Monday. Should I rack again, or stir regularly, or both? Thanks – Pete
Just let the MLF take its course. No stirring, no racking. But do keep a close eye to determine when its 100% complete, rack and then whack it with some SO2.
Ok – Seems to be proceeding at a relatively fast pace. What would be an educated guess for duration – 2 to 4 weeks? (may have already been going for a week or so when I thought it was still in primary ferment). I think I need to add a chromatography test kit to the wine lab.
Pete
It can vary based on a number of factors. What I do is look for bubbling activity at the neck of the carboy using a flashlight. When I think it’s done, I run a paper chromatography test to confirm. Yes, it should be part of your lab (no pun intended, LOL … lab also = lactic acid bacteria).
Daniel, I have a small batch of Marquette wine made from grapes that is finished MLF and it has a ph@ 4.6 and a TA-4.0. Would you add tartaric acid to it to lower the ph and raise the TA to reduce the amount of S02 needed to protect it? Thanks, Mike
4.6!!! Are you sure? 100% sure? That’s really high. Did you recalibrate your electrode with fresh buffer solutions?
You’ll still need lots of SO2 to protect the wine even if you bring it down to 4.0, which would require some 6 g/L of tartaric acid — that’s a lot. Your TA would be around 10 g/L.
First, taste the wine and decide on taste. You don’t want to throw off balance. If it is ok, then we’ll have to look at alternative ways of stabilizing the wine, if the pH is indeed that high.
Hi Daniel
I am pressing some frozen grapes for a dessert wine. And also going to play with processing some frozen Frontenac Gris grapes as if they were a red grape. This grape has been a major pain in the ass to press fresh…even with enzymes to break down pectins, it just won’t juice easily. The extended time in the press turns it into a rose. It is a mutation of the red Frontenac vine. So what the heck…just gonna try to process it like it’s parent. Can I use Lalvin c with a coinnoculation of VP 31 MLB? Can’t find any data on compatibility. Scott Labs has a “-” under category of MLB compatibility. Does that mean it is not researched or does it mean no, don’t do it.
Hi Kathi,
Yes, I saw that on FB.
MLB compatibility is always a tough one.
Lalvin C is a bayanus strain, so it might be less compatible with MLB, but take a look at this link.
Hope this helps.
Thanks for responding so quickly. The Northern Grape Project has been a great resource. The wonderful vineyard managers and eneologists at The University of Minnesota have been great teachers for me. I follow their research carefully and drink a lot of wine with them. That research document is what led me to the use of the Lalvin C. This was the first season I have used it and it cut my Malo levels in half. However the TA’s remained high.
In previous years I co-innoculated my reds with VP 31 MLB then after pressing, I added VP41….left the wine on lees for an extended period of time to break down that butterscotch flavor. It worked great. Final Malo count has been around .33 in the end. 😀 Wanting to see if I could co-inoculate this experimental batch of Frontenac Gris with Lalvin C and VP 31 to eliminate the need for that second malo treatment The double salt treatment is not proving effective on lowering Malic acid.
This is what makes this whole hobby so fun and exciting.
Double-salt didn’t work!? Huh! Do you know what proportions of tartaric to malic you had? That’s important to know, at least roughly. Then you need to do your calculations very carefully. The chemistry of the reaction is quite simple, so I’m not sure why it didn’t work.
Hi
The double salt brought the TA down from 9.2 to 7.1 but the malic acid just barely moved from 3.6 to 3.4 This was on a 5 gallon batch of Frontenac harvested and processed in 2013 which I had sitting in the carboy since then. There seems to be some discussion with researchers on the effectiveness of the double salt with malic acid shift . I still plan on double salting my Marquette this year. I will let you know how that one turns out. Thanks for your interest. This is fun stuff!!!😄
Um! Interesting. Double-salt has been around for some time. Unless the wine chemistry was off, it should work well, assuming you did all the calculations and procedure correctly. I don’t know if there is anything specific in Frontenac that could cause this strange behavior. I’m not familiar working with Frontenac. I’ll have to research myself.
Hi
Good question about the effects of double salt on Frontenac or any of the other University of Minnesota hybrids.
I have been using Acidex, which I believe is the same composition as Shiadex. If you look at research report: http://northerngrapesproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Deacidification.pdf
Under the section discussing chemical deacidification, table 1…
it looks like they are coming up with similar results that I saw with the Frontenac… In the treated portion of the wine, it completely removed the tartaric acid and only partially removed/converted the malic acid (85% to 87% remained)
I am more of an artist than a scientist, so this stuff is the weakest part of my wine making learning curve. However, I do find it fascinating and absolutely necessary for the process. Have so much respect for people like you that really know your stuff… As it did in chemistry class as a kid and in nursing school, this stuff makes me nervous. Good to be stretching my dendrites and moving through the fear LOL
Hi Kathi,
I used both (Acidex and Sihadex) with good results on viniferas.
The research on hybrids is quite interesting and perplexing as to double-salt results on those hybrids. I really need to research this and try and understand it.
This is indeed fun.
Cheers,
Daniel
Hi Daniel,
I have a viognier made w fresh grapes from central valley Calif fruit that is hazy/cloudy. Is it pectin? Should I try pectic enzyme now?
It was crushed and immediately pressed and 50 ppm of SO2 was added, no pectic enzyme used. I pitched the yeast 24 Hr w Redstar Cotes des Blanc (Epernay II) later after goferm hydration and added fermaid O at the rec dose after 1/3 sugar depletion.
The wine taste fine, lots of fruit and no off odors or tastes. The pH is 4.1, TA-5.2 and Brix -1.2 now. I did dilution and acid addition after press for original TA-5.0 to 6.1 and Brix 28.5 to 24.5.
What is the best way to manage the haze? I read your book, but I am not sure I can get methanol to test for pectin.
Thanks, Mark
Hi Mark,
I assume we are talking about wine you made this season. If so, the haze is normal as it is still very young. It will clear on its own with time, but you can speed that up with a bentonite treatment, which you need to do in any case, and which can be the source of your problem, actually.
Pectins are not an issue in whites; proteins are. So read that section in my book.
Cheers,
Daniel
I have 3 six gallon carboys of Riesling with SO2 and settled with Sparkalloid. Can I leave them that way or now that they are settled, do I have to rack off the settlement?
Once the wine has completely cleared, you should rack it off the sediments and adjust your SO2 again.
Happy Thanksgiving Daniel;
I opened a 2014 Sauv Blanc yesterday to see if it was fit for today. It was clear in the bottle, I used a lt green, and I could easily read through it, and didn’t see any cloudiness. When I pulled the cork, it clouded up. Not bad, but there. Can still see through it and all. It was 22 Brix at picking, TA .73 and pH 3.12. I did a bentonite slurry and racked it off when it settled clear (Aug 2015). I then bottled 42 days later. Thoughts? I don’t have a filter, so just did the careful racking. It was clear when it went in the bottle. Otherwise, it tastes and smell fine. My first white from my own grapes and I’m finding them a bit fussier than my reds! Is a filter in my future?
Hi John,
The most likely issue is protein haze, and it might be because of insufficient bentonite fining, either because you used too little or you didn’t leave it long enough. It should be crystal clear in 2-3 weeks after added the bentonite slurry followed by a good stir. Filtering only helps with clarity, not protein stability. Bottling within 42 days is awfully fast, too fast, esp. wine from grapes.
Daniel
Hello Daniel,
This is my first attempt at blogging, but you appear to be the best resource I’ve found to help with our problem; if it IS a problem.
We have a small vineyard (410 vines), with 3 varieties; Cabernet, Merlot, and Chardonnay. Have been making our own wine for the past 6 years, and never run into a problem before.
This years cab and merlot were handled the same as in previous years. Harvested at 24-26 brix. Sulfite added after crush to kill wild yeast. Inoculated with Lalvin Bourgovin yeast the next morning. Pressed when sugar 0 and put directly into 2-50 gal stainless steel tanks. 6 weeks later racked off to clean tanks, and 4 weeks after that racked off to 1-50 gal SS tank (with a blend of oak cubes added) and 2 oak barrels (a 15 gal and a 30 gal). The oak barrels had been used before, cleaned and stored for a year using a solution of citric acid and sulfite (using guidelines from the book “From Vines to Wines” by Jeff Cox).
The problem: The oak barrels have all been oozing wine since we put the wine in. It appears that the wine is still fermenting. I have removed the bung and had the room sprayed with red wine from the pressure that built up; so have now applied airlocks to the barrels hoping that the activity will calm down. The wine in the SS tanks are not doing this, so we are concerned that there may be a problem with the barrels.
Any insight you can give will be appreciated. We do not detect any unusual odor from the wine, but have never experienced this much “activity” before. Thanks, Mary
Hi Mary,
You did not mention anything about a malolactic fermentation (MLF). So my thought is that bacteria in barrels may have survived the sulfur-citric solution, esp. if your concentrations were low, and then kicked in. That would seem the most likely cause since you are not seeing the problem in the s/s tanks. If you used solid bungs and MLF kicked in, then yes, you’ll get seepage and that big wine explosion as pressure builds up in the barrel. MLF generates CO2 gas. If this is indeed the problem, then you have an MLF that started spontaneously with some bacteria, possibly spoilage bacteria. So you need to monitor the wine and sulfite and stabilize ASAP. And for the next use of the barrel, you would need to treat it with percarbonate so that you really get rid of bacteria before storing again with a sulfur-citric solution.
I explain this all in much detail, much more than Cox, in my book. You can find it on amazon.
Good luck.
Daniel
Thanks Daniel. I think you may be right. The wine has settled down, is it too late to try and save it? If not, how much sulfite do I need to add? Mary
I don’t know what bacteria kicked in for the MLF, if that’s what happened. If there is no off-odor or flavor, you might be ok. But before you stabilize the wine by adding sulfite, you need to determine if the MLF is complete, and if you want it to complete. Do you have a chromatography kit to do that? You need to decide what to do with respect to MLF, again, if that’s what is happening. I cannot be 100% sure unless I test the wine.
When ready to stabilize, measure the pH and add sulfite accordingly. Use the Sulfite Calculator – use 0.5 mg/L molecular SO2.
Daniel, I have 3 gallons of Pinot Gris, ph-3.1, TA 8.0, FSO2 18ppm, and the wine is clear . It was finished Oct 10, no ML bacteria added. When do you think I can bottle it? It is stored in 4 liter glass jugs at present.
Thanks Mike
Mike,
Technically, you can bottle once the wine is completely stabilized (including against tartrates and proteins) and clarified, but I always say that wine improves with some aging in bulk. But we’re dealing with 4-L jugs here, so bottle away IF it is ready. Mind you, you would still need to give the wine some time before drinking … it will improve within the next few months to 6 months.
Daniel